A nomad from Nepal

Today we’re speaking with Soham Dhakal, who first travelled to the US when he was 17 and has been back and forth between the two countries so many times he considers himself a nomad. But before we get to Soham’s story I want to correct something I said last week. Our new text messaging service is not limited: it’s for everyone listening to the show, on any app. Sneak a quick look now to confirm: at the top of the description to this episode – and every episode –  you’ll see the words ‘Send us a Text Message.’ Click on it now to do just that, wherever you are, including Nepal. (I know because I tried it myself last week). Fyi, the number you’re texting is in the US, so you’ll have to pay the usual rates. Text us about anything you hear on Nepal Now, or to send us ideas for the show. 

OK, on with our story. As you’ll hear me say, Soham was one of the first people I thought of when I decided to start this series of migration. I’ve known him for about 7 years and he’s always been splitting his time between countries. I haven’t been part of his life in the US but I know that when he’s in Nepal he’s also on the move: a very busy, sociable guy. Where some people might think of what they’ll lose when they leave country A for country B, and vice-versa, I imagine Soham thinks about what he gets to add back into his life when he returns to each place. 

It's a cliché that being away from a place gives you more perspective on it, but Soham seems to have actually put that into practice, and offers interesting thoughts on how migration has coloured his own life, the relationship with his family, and Nepal itself, the country that he still considers home. 

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Music by audionautix.com.

Thank you to Himal Media in Patan Dhoka for the use of their studio.

Transcript

Soham: 0:00

One of the things migration actually does, is it gives you time to reflect because you're outside of this space, you're outside of your family and you see different perspectives,. And, if you can capitalize on that, I think you can really create a healthy, supportive environment with your family.

Marty: 0:31

Hi everyone, I'm Marty Logan. Thank you for clicking on this episode of Nepal Now: On The Move, where we speak with some of the huge numbers of people leaving, and occasionally returning, to this country wedged between India and China. Today we're speaking with Soham Dhakal, Soham first left for the U. S. when he was 17 to study, and in the decades since then he's been traveling back and forth regularly, mostly working now, to the point where he considers himself a nomad. But before we get to Soham's story, I want to correct one thing that I said last week. Our new text messaging tool is not limited. Anyone listening to the show on any app can use it. If you sneak a quick look now, you'll see what I mean. In the description to this episode, and every episode, it will be at the very top on the left. It says, Send us a text message. If you click on that, your messaging app will open on your phone, and you type away. It works anywhere in the world. I know because I tried it last week from here in Nepal. FYI, the number you're texting is in the US, so the regular charges would apply, So please, text us about anything you hear on the show or send us ideas for people you think we should talk to. Okay, on with our story. As you'll hear me say later, Soham was one of the first people I thought of when I decided to do this series focusing on migration. I've known him for about seven years and all that time he's been on the move going back and forth between Nepal and the US. I haven't been part of his life in the U. S., but I know that when he's here in Nepal, he's also on the move almost always. He's a very active, sociable guy. I think some people, when they live a similar life, going back and forth between different places, when they're leaving one place, they think about what they're leaving behind. I imagine that Soham, when he's leaving country A to return to country B, is thinking about all the things that he's going to be able to add back into his life. He's very positive about having such strong ties to these two countries. It's a cliché that being away from a place gives you a better perspective on it, but I think that might be true in Soham's case. In our chat, he shares interesting ideas about how migration has coloured his own life and the lives of his family members, and also migration's impact on society. on Nepal up until this point in history and maybe what could happen in the future. Please listen now to my conversation with Soham Dhakal. Soham Dakal, welcome to the podcast.

Soham: 3:29

Thank you, Marty. Glad to be here.

Marty: 3:32

I'm very happy to be talking to you. As you probably know, Nepal Now has become Nepal Now: On the move. And when I think of on the move and people on the move, you're the first person that comes to mind. I think you're the, the most on the move person that I know.

Soham: 3:47

I don't know if I should be, flattered or insulted with that.

Marty: 3:52

Definitely that's what we want to talk about today. But before we get to you being on the move, tell me a little bit about where you came from. You know, where you were born, where you went to school, a bit of your life history.

Soham: 4:04

Sure. Yeah, so I was born in Nepal, actually at Prasuti Griha, way back when. I'm not going to say when. But, back in the day. And I did my schooling in Nepal, went to Budhanilkantha School. After that, joined St. Xavier's College for six, seven months when I then went to US for higher studies. And I studied there, worked there, lived there. And, for the last 10, 15 years, I've been doing back and forth, between US and Nepal, trying to get Sohame, US technologies in Nepal, creating jobs in Nepal and, you know, the usual.

Marty: 4:47

Okay. That was a very capsule, description.

Soham: 4:51

See, I'm prepared.

Marty: 4:53

Thank you very much for that. So you left after high school the first time. I think you said to the US, right? How was that experience?

Soham: 5:03

it was a very interesting experience. This was back in the early 90s, right? And, flying out of Nepal to get to US was a long flight. So we had to go from I think here to Japan and to San Francisco and it was a, it was a pretty long flight. And back then, we did not have these touch screens or monitors or any of that. And you had these things that, you know, came down from the ceiling with a projector and you could watch movies and they'll give you headphones, right? My first experience after getting into, US was It was an flight to San Francisco, but from San Francisco, I had to go to Kansas City. It was a domestic flight, and there I had to pay, I think it was 5 dollars for headphones. And that was a shock because I assumed headphones would be free. And I did pay 5 dollars, but then I fell asleep. So, I'm never gonna forget that story.

Marty: 6:06

5 dollars down the drain.

Soham: 6:08

Down the drain.

Marty: 6:09

So, you never forgot that, that lesson?

Soham: 6:10

Yeah. So, that was my first, I guess, introduction to US in terms of, you know, just how the culture, all of that was going to shape me and all that. So, yeah, it was I was very young when I went, I was barely 17, And, it was, it was quite an experience going, into San Francisco, then, Kansas City, it was winter, and, you know, back then we didn't have internet or anything, so all of the information I had about US. was, from either Sohame, you know, magazines or books at the American Library, or from the movies that we would watch, like. wrestling, you know, which is pretty much all the information you need about US, I guess.

Marty: 7:00

And wrestling continues to flourish.

Soham: 7:01

Exactly. So my education about, I guess, US was from Hulk Hogan.

Marty: 7:06

Right. Great teacher.

Soham: 7:08

Yeah, he's a great teacher.

Marty: 7:09

That's about what you experienced when you got there and on the way there. How was how was it leaving Nepal behind? How was it, you know, leaving your family, leaving the culture? Obviously, you must have felt homesick for Sohame time, as much as you are kind of an outgoing, adventurous guy ready for the next thing.

Soham: 7:29

The thing was, because I had been in boarding school, I was kind of used to being away from my family for, periods of time. And in the US also, I had cousins there. So, I was staying with them. So, The transition wasn't as severe as I thought it might be. However, the difference was I couldn't come back to Nepal like every year. You know, I just couldn't afford it. And you would really, back then, we would have to call Nepal and it was pretty expensive. So I remember writing letters like, you know, physical letters and mailing them and waiting for the letters to come back to me, right? So, yeah, the communication wasn't as frequent or instantaneous like now. So, it did feel like I was Sohamewhere away and, you know, the homesick factor was, pretty high. because of the distance, because of the lack of communication and all of that.

Marty: 8:28

Right, right. And I'm guessing the culture shock was less because you had family around you who could kind of, you know, introduce you and help you to understand how things were there.

Soham: 8:40

Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the benefits of growing up in the 80s or 90s is because we had lack of information, whatever information we did get, we would try to go a little bit deeper and understand it. Right. So I remember in the 80s, you could rent these VHS tapes, things like Breakfast Club, all of these movies and you kind of try to understand that culture because that was the only movie you could watch, right. And you had more attention span to watch the whole movie without being disturbed by anything else, you know? So I think because of that exposure, I had an idea of what the culture would be. However actually living there is, is a bit different, you know, it's, it's just not like in the movies all the time, and, so, it was a learning, and, it was a good learning.

Marty: 9:37

After that, I know that in terms of keeping yourself busy, earning Sohame money.. you've done many things, right? Yeah. I can think of writer, editor, filmmaker, house, not builder, but you're involved in, house production, house location. Yeah. I'm not sure how to describe that. And now the work you're doing is more kind of management level of these different companies. All the time that you were doing these different occupations you've been going back and forth, as you said. I mean, where's home now? Do you still feel like Nepal is home base?

Soham: 10:18

That's' a really good question because, If Sohameone were to ask me, like, how do you define yourself, I would probably say nomad, right? Because I think that started with schooling because, boarding school, staying there majority of the year. coming home, even my parents, my dad had government jobs, so he would be in different places. So staying with my aunt, you know, my grandmother, maternal grandmother, all of that kind of added to the feeling of, not having like a place that I really call home. And it's not in any negative way, sense at all. I actually like that. Like you were describing all of the different things that I had to do. So when I went to US, I did part time jobs. I worked at a grocery store, got, you know, promoted- and apparently like, being in the meat department is the highest paying job. So I worked there, you know, so, knowing, learning all of these different skills and, living in different places. I guess it's also part of my nature that I'm curious, you know, and I like to know more, learn more. And which has actually worked well with the fact that I, have more of a nomadic lifestyle. Had it been that I was focused on one discipline and just working that, I think I would have preferred like a, a solid base and just not have so many, different types of living situations or even work situations. But I think, my personality actually thrives on that. And so to answer your question, Nepal always feels home, because I was born here and I have, you know, a family here, but when I go to US, It doesn't feel like a different country because I also went there when I was young, stayed there for a long time, made friends, grew up there. So, in a way, I think I'm lucky that I can do that transition rather easily. And again, it is also, I think, down to the personality and how you see life and how you, you know, all of the tendencies that you've, come up with, you know, just growing up the way you did.

Marty: 12:33

Hmm, that's interesting. Do you think that you approach living in both places the same way? So, I'm thinking that, you know, I'm from Canada, lived in Nepal now for quite a while. And I find living in Nepal, to put it simply, more relaxed. Yeah. Right? You don't need to abide by a fixed schedule quite as rigidly as you would if you were living in the US or Canada. Does that Sohamehow affect how you might approach a job? Like, do you see it as being, you know, less serious is not the right description, but is it easier Sohamehow to carry on your career, your work in Nepal compared to the US? Do you have to like pump it up a notch when you're in the US? Do you see what I'm getting at?

Soham: 13:24

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, and that's a very valid point and actually a really good question because yes, it is very true that even on the surface or even if you go a little deeper, things are way relaxed over here. One simple example I would give you is when I go to US, my need to be right or be treated fairly rises exponentially, right? So for example, if I'm driving, Sohameone cuts me off, I'm angry, you know, like, and I feel like I deserve to be not cut off. In Nepal, there's a micro in front of you, you just kind of wait it out, right? So yes, even from every day interactions, there's a huge difference. There's no electricity. Yeah, I chill. In US there's no electricity. you're calling 10 different places. you're angry, all of that, right? Now, how does that translate into work? For me, it's actually opposite because in Nepal, having studied and worked in US for so long, I have internalized Sohame expectations. right. So if we're meeting, meeting on time, agenda, clarity, you know, structure process, Sohame of those things that are so internal. I find that I have to tone it down a little bit when I'm in Nepal. So I'm actually more conscious of those things, including because I, you know, stayed in US for so long, picked up the American accent like very quickly. And it wasn't, I was pretending, it was just, you know, easily pick it up. But coming back to Nepal, I have to tone it down. You know, I was teaching, teaching for MBA students and I, I really slowed down, you know, in talking and all of that. So, if you extrapolate that into work, yes, in Nepal, a lot of the attitudes seem to be a little bit more relaxed. For a lot of people, that's okay, and it's actually more helpful. But if you are anxiety driven and, you know, a stressed person like me, yeah, it can actually be more difficult trying to navigate the workplace or get people to do things in Nepal than in the US. But the flip side of that is it is, you know, you don't have to take things so seriously. You don't have to be always tightened up, you know, in Nepal. So that's what I love about it.

Marty: 15:49

Yeah. That jibes roughly with what I feel about it also. Okay. Switching gears here, I want to ask you, migration is a huge topic around Nepal now, and it has been for a while, but it just seems to keep growing more and more people are leaving, they're sending more, more and more money back. Whether it's positive or negative depends on who you talk to. and, and there's also a feeling, I think, a strong feeling among many people that it's not negative, that you know Sohame of the so called best brains are leaving the country Sohame of the trained resources and nurses are a recent topic, nurses and doctors I guess. You know, they're trained here and then they go Sohamewhere else to live and work for obvious reasons: pay, life, life conditions, etc. How do you feel about that and being Sohameone who's going although coming back so far, always coming back how do you feel about that wider kind of political situation? Do you see yourself as part of a positive and negative trend or Sohamehow separate from that?

Soham: 17:00

That's a very interesting question because that is our reality, right? I think. in order to answer that question, let's take a few steps back. First of all, any migration that is happening in Nepal, it's multi-tiered, right? You have the workers going to the Gulf or, you know, Malaysia, Japan-- those are temporary. They go work, come back, bring in the remittance. That's a large segment of the population. Now if you go higher on the pyramid, then there are students going out, right? Maybe 90 percent of them won't come back, right? But at least as a student, they're going. Then if you go higher than that, then there are people who have actually migrated, whether through business, through work, or all of that, who have settled in these countries outside. What does that do to Nepal, number one, right? So, If you look at it from Nepal's perspective, had we not have these kinds of migration, I don't know what kind of Nepal we would have, because first of all, we would need to have all of these avenues for these people to be engaged, right? to learn, to grow all of that. And I just don't think having transitioned from, you know, Panchayat, all of the, I mean, if you look back at our history, we weren't even open till like 1950s, right. And the amount of learning we had to do as a country in the last 50, 60 years is ridiculous. We didn't even have bank like 60 years ago, right. From that to now having everything digital that's a big transition. So how would the population be able to handle all that or the government or even the businesses? That's a big question to ask. So yeah, migration is good in my opinion. Now, there comes the question of brain drain, right? Would the brain have been more productive in Nepal? I don't know because do we have enough avenues here for these people going abroad to excel and apply that brain? So all of the brain drain that has actually happened is good for those individuals because I'm sure they're able to exercise whatever capacity they had mental, you know, intellect, all of that, to the max, hopefully. Now the question becomes this has already happened, there's no going back. What do we do next, right? What can we do? So I think this is where Nepal is in a unique position. One, we have all of these labourers learning technical skills or semi-skill set that, that can be, you know, come back and we can actually have Sohame productive sector. One of the interesting thing about this is I was reading, Sohame of news and, you know, tweets from Sumana, our MP, about how even doctors, when they have to come back, there are certain, you know, exams, all of this that they have to prove. and if they're not able to do that, they're not going to have a job, right? So they go back and they're flourishing in their universities. they're like head of departments and all of that. So I think it's a lot of structure that is a problem. And I do sense that in, in a lot of people that I have actually, you know, conversed of course, this is all anecdotal but, people want to come back. You know, what are you going to do for like 30 years abroad? If you want to have, make an impact as you grow old, it's our human nature to look for meaning, do a little more, right? So, If we can facilitate that, at the productive sector, you know, semi-skilled work, and also at the, you know, more deeper, you know, career, intellect, whatever those fields are. we really, as Nepal or government, has to make sure that that happens and create opportunities, you know, and those aren't hard-- We've seen those being done in so many other countries, right? Reverse brain drain is a thing, you know, even in India Ireland, all of those, right? So we've seen that historically, so we should be able to do that and it just takes Sohame structural changes, proper planning and, you know, I know one of the things that's really big for NRNs is dual citizenship like Sohamething like that. So maybe, you know, the government can say you work for two years in your field, you can get, you know, points and then you get on a track to whatever, a Nepali green card or however they want to call it. Other countries do things like that. To answer your question, one, yeah, immigration has happened. And if it didn't, there would probably be other problems. So I'm actually, OK, that that happened, you know, it actually, improved the economy, let people increase people's purchasing power, showed them the world, how things can be different. And we've seen, you know, examples of how that has impacted. In terms of brain drain. if you're going for a career, education, all of that, even that I think is also good. But you keep hearing, like we're going to stop students from going abroad and all of that. That's not going to happen. You know, that's just not good. But the focus should be on how do you incentivize people to actually come back and make an impact and, be part of the, you know, the engine or. structure.

Marty: 22:12

Yeah, I think you're right about the train having gone. Like I said, despite the hardships of the last few years, COVID mainly, yeah, people kept going. Yep. The amount of money they sent kept increasing. Yeah, right. So this is a phenomenon that's not going to end soon. There is, I think, an inherent inherent desire to come back home. Yeah, right among everyone. Yeah, and if you can Sohamehow you know, link that to people contributing. Yeah, most people I think do want to contribute in Sohame way, so create options for them. Yep. it's in a way a forced contribution, but have options so that they're contributing to build. Let's switch again a little bit and talk more about personal. I know from being here long enough now that within the Nepali families traditionally, the son has a particular role, and one part of that role is being this stable force and providing, it depends which son you are also, but in general, sons play that role, looking after the family. Has it been harder for you because you have been coming and going, or are you able to fit that in, or do you see your family as Sohamehow the extended family being different, and those traditional expectations on you in particular because of your family, are they different than we would expect from the average Nepali family?

Soham: 23:40

So first thing is, even though Nepali families, we may look at it from a general perspective, there's a lot of difference, right? it's not just about where you are, you know, whether you're from Kathmandu, outside, the expectations based on that, or even within the city areas. It may even have Sohamething to do with caste or, you know, even, not just caste, but social standing, pressure, how we perceive all of that, right? So all of that is built in. That is external. The internal part of that is the responsibility that you have to your family, right? How do you feel that? it's pretty clear that we talked about migration earlier that, especially in Kathmandu, most of the-- and I'm again, generalizing here-- but most of the young people are abroad. So even in my extended family you know, most of the kids or the, the son's daughters are abroad. so that has changed the family dynamics overall. I think it's the same for villages also; it's just a different context, but it's the same. So, for me, personally, there are a couple of things that I. to do, as an agenda or Sohamething. One was I, I did want to live with my parents, you know. I always grew up outside, was in boarding school-- I never had time with them. So I'm, I'm enjoying actually spending time with them. The other thing is, as you know, our daughters are friends, they've been friends for a long time. I'm divorced, right? so. and I'm not married, after having been divorced for a long time. And, I have very good terms with my ex wife and we're raising a daughter., That is non-traditional. So, one thing that I did want to emphasize in my life was the non-traditional aspect of what we consider as a family, right. The family unit in Nepal from externally,-- if you look at it from the outside--is, is like in the Hindi movies or Hindi serials: it's so perfect. But there's so many issues, we, we all know, right? One, we do have a patriarchy, a patriarchal culture, right? And that, that's always been with us. And even in the new generation, it seems to kind of be rearing its ugly head more than in our generation, which is surprising. Again, this is anecdotal. One of the things that helped me is my parents being understanding and liberal. They weren't born that way probably, but every day you, you convince them, you talk to them and it's the engagement factor. So what I want to stress is that we all have families and the more you engage yeah, it's not going to be easy the better outcome it's going to have In Nepali families, we do have a. a tendency to just not talk about it, you know, hide it and that's a short term solution but, you know, it's probably does more harm than, you know, good. And then there's also the need to self reflect, right? And you can't just always get your way or need to, have it your way. So, I think one of the things migration and all of that actually does, is it gives you time to reflect because you're outside of this space, you're outside of your family and you see different world and you see different perspectives, and if you can capitalize on that, I think you can really create a healthy, supportive environment with your family. So I think to answer your questions, yeah, there are expectations but because those are not so solidified anymore because of migration and all of that, it's pretty much up to you to fulfill those. And yeah, I mean, I don't think there's so much expectation being put on me because if there was, I would probably be married already but, at the same time, I, I really like the fact that I have good relation with my family they're understanding and they support my decisions, even though, you know, Sohametimes I'm a little bit off the rails.

Marty: 27:59

No, I think that's great. from my perspective, you, you are definitely living a non-traditional, Nepali life, where, you know, you, you would expect people to be more bound to their place and people, I guess, but you're right: things are changing very quickly.. I don't think you'll mind me saying that you mentioned our daughters and both our daughters are planning to continue their studies outside of the country. Right. How do you feel about that, knowing that your daughter is leaving Nepal? I would guess from everything you've said up to this point, you would be happy to see her go and kind of, you know, live her own journey. Right.. What do you say about that?

Soham: 28:45

I knew it would happen. I did it, so I would be a hypocrite if I said you, you, you shouldn't go outside, right. But at the same time, the world has changed, you know, Of course it's, it's cliche to say that, but just look at when we were growing up versus when they were growing up: the amount of information they have, the amount of social, you know, navigations they have to do. I just telling a couple of friends the other day, like for us, truth was, if Sohameone came to you and said Pele died, you just believe them. You didn't question right. Here, if I tell my daughter, Sohamething, she's going to question it, you know. She's going to say,'here's the proof, I looked it up, there's a paper on it'. So, just the amount of, growing up that they have done in terms of, the knowledge and also critical thinking is way different. For them to not explore more would probably be a hindrance for their growth. Now, having said that, of course, I don't want my daughter to go anywhere. I'm just going to try and move wherever she goes. No, I'm not. But, she'll be happy to hear that. She'll be happy to hear that. But I hope that. In her journey also, she gets to realizations that there are bigger things in life and, you know, there are certain things that you can do and, you know, you don't have to, like, do all of it, but it's about your journey, you know, as cliche as it sounds, it is in the end. You know, after we're dead, we're dead, done, there's, you know, nothing, so I'm actually happy that she's wanting to do this and, because it's your daughter, you think they're not old enough to do it, but at the same time you have to, you know, kind of let them go and see. They will struggle, they will, you know, go through their journey and hopefully they grow as a person, you know, and continue growing throughout their life.

Marty: 30:42

Okay. Is there something else that you think you want to say?

Soham: 30:47

No, I think this is a really fun thing for me to do because I don't think I have talked about some of these things. I mean in private settings probably, but the one thing that I did want to add was I'm glad you're doing this podcast related to mobility and, you know, how the transitions and all of that are happening, and I think, it's a pretty wide subject but, I think looking at some of the growth people have had and the impact in families and how the families have grown and all of that, and not just looking at it in terms of numbers is actually gonna, do good, you know. It's gonna give, even people here or abroad perspective. And I wish you all the best, you know, success on this.

Marty: 31:32

Thank you very much. Thank you. Nice to talk to you, again.. Yeah, it was, it was really fun talking to you. Okay. Bye bye. Thanks again to Soham for taking the time and doing this chat. Please let me know what you thought of it. You can email, as always, nepalnowpod(at)gmail.com, or message us on all the social apps. Except for X, we're(at)nepalnowpod. And finally, a shout out to ACORAB, the Association of Community Radio Broadcasters of Nepal, for generously letting us use their studio. In our next interview, I'll be talking with an expert about labour migration of Nepali women, especially to Gulf countries, and tying this with our previous episode with Sushma, who went to Kuwait and had to come back early. Next week you'll hear one of our micro episodes, Nepal Now: Right Now!, where we share news about the show and migration as it affects Nepal. I'll talk to you then.