Nepal unprepared to reintegrate female migrant workers

Hi everyone. I’m sorry for the delay in releasing this episode. In a minute, we’ll get to this week’s chat about how female migrant workers are treated after they return to Nepal, but first I want to share some personal news.

My stepfather passed away in December, which changed everything. Like many of us he was a migrant. Born on a farm 90 years ago in northwestern Ontario, the centre of Canada, when he was a young man he moved 2,500 km away to Vancouver on the Pacific Ocean. Soon after he moved even further, across what was then Georgia Strait, now the Salish Sea, to Vancouver Island, where my family lived. After he retired, my wife and I, then living in central Canada, encouraged him to visit his hometown. But insisting that he was afraid to fly, he always said no. He also refused to make the trip by train or car. I think maybe he had just become too much of a homebody at that point, preferring to spend his time caring for his yard and small house in a small city. I dedicate this episode to my stepfather, Joe. 

This week we’re talking with Sunita Mainali, Executive Director of WOREC, an NGO that works on a broad range of women’s issues. As I said, we’re talking mainly about what happens to female migrant workers after they return from working abroad. As you’ll hear, I just assumed that the focus would, and should, be on finding work for these women in Nepal. But I learned quickly that without social reintegration there can be no economic reintegration.

One note: Sunita mentions the GCM. That is the Global Coordination Mechanism, an international treaty on migration developed by the United Nations.

Resources

WOREC website

Send us feedback and ideas. We'll respond to every message:

LinkedIn

Instagram

Facebook

Voicemail

Music by audionautix.com.

Thank you to Himal Media in Patan Dhoka for the use of their studio.

Chapters

• 0:34 Introduction
• 5:21 WOREC's work with female migrant workers
• 8:30 Social and economic reintegration
• 15:02 How migrant women break society's chains
• 22:07 The federal government's role in women's migration
• 25:51 Many policies, but they neglect women's issues

Transcript

Sunita Mainali: 0:00

The good part is these returning migrant workers, women, they are organizing at the ground level, they are doing a lot of advocacy things with the local government. They're demanding for some of the plans, some of the budget that works not only for the economic, but for the social reintegration.

marty: 0:33

Hi, everyone. I'm sorry for the delay in releasing this episode. In a minute, we'll get to this week's chat about how female migrant workers are treated after they return to Nepal. But first I want to share some personal news. My stepfather passed away in December, which changed everything. Like many of us, he was a migrant. Born on a farm 90 years ago in northwestern Ontario, the centre of Canada, when he was a young man he moved 2,500 kilometers away to Vancouver on the Pacific Ocean. Soon after he moved even further, across what was then Georgia Straight, now the Salish Sea, to Vancouver Island, where my family lived. After he retired, my wife and I, then living in central Canada, encouraged him to visit his hometown. But insisting that he was afraid to fly, he always said no. He also refused to make the trip by train or car. I think maybe he had just become too much of a homebody at that point, preferring to spend his time caring for his yard and small house in a small city. I dedicate this episode to my stepfather, Joe. Welcome to Nepal Now: On the Move. My name is Marty Logan. This is the podcast that talks to some of the hundreds of thousands of people migrating from, and sometimes to, this small country surrounded by global giants, China and India. Months later we reach out again to find out if reality in their new temporary home is meeting expectations. Occasionally, we call in an expert to try and better understand all of this movement. This week, we're talking with Sunita Mainali, Executive Director of WOREC, an NGO that works on a broad range of women's issues. As I said, we're talking mainly about what happens to female migrant workers after they return from working abroad. As you'll hear, I just assumed that the focus would, and should, be on finding work for these women in Nepal. But I learned quickly that without social reintegration, there can be no economic reintegration. One note before we start Sunita mentions the GCM. That's the global coordination mechanism, an international treaty on migration developed by the United Nations. Please listen now to my chat with Sunita, Mainali Sunita Mainali, welcome to Nepal Now Podcast.

Sunita Mainali: 3:21

Thank you.

marty: 3:23

We're here to talk about your work with WOREC on migration of women, and particularly the reintegration of women after they've had their migration experience. But before we get to to the heart of this conversation. I wanted to ask you, like every other guest, just to tell us a little bit about yourself, where you were born, where you went to school and studied, that kind of thing.

Sunita Mainali: 3:48

Thank you, Marty, for this opportunity. I'm Sunita Mainali. I was born in one of the rural villages of Nepal. Then I was grown up in Kathmandu. My parents, they migrated from my village to Kathmandu to ensure the quality education of their children. So I was brought up here. I went to boarding school, then I did my bachelor's degree from Tribhuvan University. That is the national university, where my major subjects were mass communication, journalism, and English literature. Then I shifted to management. So I did my master's in business administration from United Kingdom, from Anglia Ruskin University. Then after I started working in this development sector, though it was my passion from very childhood analyzing the social structure and then, you know, speaking up against any forms of discrimination and speaking for the rights. But, later on, I professionally joined my career after I did my master's degree in MBA.

marty: 4:54

Thank you very much, Sunita, for that brief description of your life and your studies. Now, I know that you're Executive Director at WOREC, which is a large organization that works with women, uh, it's been around for a long time and has worked in many different areas. Can you tell me, in general, what kind of work you're doing with women migrant workers?

Sunita Mainali: 5:20

So, before I start, answering the question, I want to go back, when WOREC was established. So, we go to 1991, and that time the trafficking issue was, emerging issue in Nepal and WOREC was established with a life history of a trafficked survivor, woman survivor. So that's how we started our work. Then later on, we evolved and then we started working in different sectors. Our approach is a bit different on migration, like our right to mobility and right to work. guides us to develop our programmes, plannings, and we see migration as a global phenomena. And we have done a lot of community awareness part where we discuss on safe migration, orderly migration. At the same time, we also work with more than 5, 000 women human rights defenders in the ground who are defending human rights of women and girls and along with the migration issues. And we do policy advocacy at different level like we have local government now, provincial government and national government. We see a lot of policy gap within the, you know, the migration framework where migrant women, returning migrant women's reintegration part is still missing. So this is a bit about community awareness, advocacy, researches, and then we also do regional and international collabouration as WOREC is member of numerous regional and international networks who are working in the migration issues. And one of the beauty of WOREC is we work on community organizing. This organizing brings the self representative group, migrants group, together and they are there themself to discuss on their issues, make strategies, agendas, do community campaigns for their rights at the ground and those voices are, you know, carried on like at different levels at national level, regional level and international level. So we also believe in local to global and global to local.

marty: 7:29

Okay, great. Yeah, that's really interesting. Obviously, trafficking of women is an important issue and it's an issue also that's gotten a lot of attention when it comes to migration and obviously also it's an ongoing issue. But I found really interesting that you were working on the reintegration of women migrant workers, which is something that we haven't heard so much about in general, and that you're working also local, national, and international, even on this issue of reintegration. So, can you tell me a little bit about what particular issues are important when it comes to working on the reintegration of women? So these are women who have returned from their migration experience. Is it all about them finding work once they get home? Or are there other social and cultural dimensions to it?

Sunita Mainali: 8:29

So when we talk about social reintegration, we call it social and economic reintegration. The terminology, comes from the researches that the community women they did themselves. So to work on this, shifting narrative is very, very important. When we talk about migrant women they are, like, the showcase is something like very pity, and, the vulnerable part is more focused. But what the woman says and what our research says is(for) many of the woman migration is the process of empowerment. That is the process where they saw that they are contributing economically to their family, to their society and to the state. But,, the part which is shown outside is very much pity. So this is how women migrants are portrayed. But many of them, they say, we go for migration because we want to escape from all these sorts of discriminations and violence we are facing at our home, society and nation. So this is a part of empowerment and the process, but when they come back from their work they go through a lot of, you know, sociocultural and economic issues. For example, they are abroad, they send money to their family, that money is helping their family for good education, health, social well being, economic well being, and even the remittance they bring to the country is helping Nepal government for their development and, you know, for their contributing in their GDP. But once they come back, they have nothing. Like they sent all the money to the family and even they are not there to decide about their life for their health, for their livelihood, and all these things. So, the backlash starts from family. there are a lot of questions related to their sexuality, from the intimate partners we have seen, from the family members. They are cocommented(on) based on the dress they wear, food they eat. And, at the same time, that discrimination, which they escaped when they were abroad, that cycle of discrimination again starts. So this is the reality. And why we talk about social, why we don't talk about only economic? It's because without social reintegration, the economic reintegration doesn't work. Social reintegration is something like accepting the migrant or returning migrant woman by their family, by their society, and by the state. So at the state level, the policies, if we see the reintegration guideline of Nepal government, it's very much gender neutral and it doesn't say about the specific need or the issues of returning migrant woman. And at the same time, as a family, the social norms is not changed it's still there in the society. So they go through a lot of backlashes and they have, there is the control over mobility and once they come back, they work as a care worker inside their home. And that work is still not recognized as work, which is not connected with the economic, transactions. So these are some of the, you know, issues that returning migrant women face, but they are so much proud that they went abroad and they earned money, they sent to the family, they contributed for the economic and social status of their family, society, and state. Yeah, this is the way like they share with us and we work with them.

marty: 12:16

Right, okay. Wow, that's very interesting. I interviewed a researcher last year now, and she also made the point very strongly that we focus, as a society, too much on the negative. She also mentioned the media in particular never raises the positive stories of women migrant workers and what they accomplish. So it's very interesting to hear you say that, as you described it, and also the fact that without having that social reintegration, the acceptance, then economic integration won't succeed. It's very interesting to hear that because I think a lot of us think, as I said myself earlier, the most important thing we automatically assume is getting home and finding a job. And whether or not your economic and work experience abroad qualifies you to do some work when you return to Nepal. But I think what you're saying is, wait a minute, first of all, the woman has to come back and feel that there's some acceptance, number one, in her family, number two, in her community, and then within the broader society that allows her to use her overall experiences to contribute, right?

Sunita Mainali: 13:37

Yes, yeah,

marty: 13:40

Okay. This backlash that you say women face, do you think it's because the women themselves have changed? Or is it that when they come back, people think that they have changed in, in negative ways that society doesn't accept?

Sunita Mainali: 14:02

Again, there is like a difference, like going to Europe or traveling to other American countries and working with some Gulf countries, the perception is very different. Depends upon the continents or country you migrate to work, right? So when a woman decides to migrate for their livelihood, let's say, let's say like the Middle East or Malaysia she has to break multiples of chains of social norms. So that decision is a big gut that she does for herself, because, the mobility issues and the control over sexuality. Whenever a woman or girl, she decides to go outside, it's more focused on her sexuality. The questions come over there. She goes to, for the foreign employment. After some years or some months, she comes back. So, it's already a part of empowerment for a woman, like she already broke the chain, but those people who are already there, who were there before and who are there(now), the perception is same because they have not seen the dimension of change that a woman has gone through, the path she has walked, you know, she has, she traveled in her journey. So, it's, it's more tussle. Before, maybe there were questions, but, uh, she didn't break the chain and it was a bit silenced and calm. But when you start breaking the chain, there comes some tussle, so the backlash starts. It's, it's very difficult to digest the change. So if we think something new, or if we try to adapt something new, it's very difficult to change. So it's more about the mentality, the perception. So I think, women are changing, I still remember one of the returning migrant women, what she shared with me when she saw plane, flight, the plane, for the first time in her life in Kathmandu airport, it was the most jubilant, you know, time of her life. She never saw, aircraft so near and that, you know, going through all this process was part of her own, self empowerment and access to her own internal resources. So then they come back and they, you know, they start making some dialogues because they are not there silent now. They are there to make some questions, some dialogues. Then the tussle starts and the backlashes are more tough than the previous, you know...

marty: 16:38

Right, right. So instead of ending up in a situation where you have this woman who's come back with skills and experiences that she could apply in Nepal; instead, what you have, I'm assuming, is this woman comes back and then she's met with a backlash. She's not accepted, she's unable to use her skills and experiences. And instead, probably in many cases, becomes frustrated because she has been empowered, but she can't. you know, use that experience. So she loses out and there's discord in the family and the, entire society and country loses out because they're not harnessing all of those newfound skills and experiences that she has.

Sunita Mainali: 17:25

Yes. There are some of the women who are doing wonderful job after they come back, because they have that resistance, resilience. from their side. They are some leaders, and they are also doing some economic empowerment things. But last time we did one survey and it shows more than 80 percent of returning migrant women, they are unemployed. And we also saw some of the plans and policies of local government and the local government, they don't have any specific plans or the budget for, you know, socioeconomic reintegration for the returning migrant workers and specifically women. The good part is these returning migrant workers, women, they are organizing at the ground level, they are doing a lot of advocacy things with the local government. They're demanding for some of the plans, some of the budget that works not only for the economic, but for the social reintegration and for them, the social reintegration is shifting social norms. Until and unless the social norms, the perception towards them, and the patriarchal system is not dismantled, the real social integration of returnee migrant woman is not ensured. So this is the way they are, you know, making a lot of impact at the ground. And definitely, yes, the skills, the knowledge they bring from outside throughout their work and experience is not being recognized.

marty: 18:55

Yeah, I think you're saying that with, with a few exceptions, it's not happening the way that it should be happening. And you mentioned how migrant workers are going to their local governments and requesting some aid, some budgets to do some work on reintegration. What exactly would that kind of activity look like? Let's say that the women did succeed in working with the local government, got a budget, exactly what might they try to do to improve that acceptance when they come back? Is it counseling families or is it working with prospective employers, or how do you start that social change, social mobilization?

Sunita Mainali: 19:40

They are working in different dimensions. One thing is they are trying to develop community. care mechanism. They are not only thinking for themselves, but they are thinking in a broader way to other returning migrant women and those women who are planning for the migration. And, you know, the counseling is very much important. It's GBV(gender-based violence), it's the economic crisis. And it's also the health crisis lack of social security and all these things are really impacting their mental health. And they want to make that community support system; it's like a network. And in that network, any of the women who are going through any worst situation can come there and it's a very much safe space to share and to discuss. And they can make some joint effort to mitigate those challenges. And another thing is to make access to the psychosocial counseling support through the trained psychosocial counselor. Another part is like, they are also working for the small enterprise. They are planning for some of the trainings and then work for the production, you know, and to enhance their economic empowerment. They are also pushing local government for, you know, supporting them for a small enterprise, uh, for example, pickle making trainings, electricians' trainings, plumber training, so that they can, you know, have the economic opportunity.

marty: 21:12

Okay. And obviously, the national government, the Nepal government, also plays a big role in migration, and particularly the treatment of women. There's been a de facto ban on women migrating to countries in the(Persian) Gulf region for many years now with a couple of exceptions. And hopefully the number of exceptions will grow as the government signs more agreements with specific countries, but the Nepal Government does play a strong role, I think, in helping to kind of solidify this notion that women are victimized by migration. is there a way to work with the Nepal Government to help make the reintegration of migrant workers more positive, or do you think it's really the job of the local governments?

Sunita Mainali: 22:06

The federal Government of Nepal, Nepal's role is very much important on this. We are having dialogues with the parliamentarians with the ministry, minister, and, uh, we are also making the platforms where the minister and the returning migrant women, they come together and they discuss on these issues So as we know, Nepal Government is a champion country for the GCM(Global Coordination Mechanism) implementation. And I saw the list of the countries in Asia and Pacific, and I was so amazed. The countries like Nepal, Bangladesh and other, uh, champion countries, which is very much voluntary. But those countries, those host countries, who are taking, you know, a lot of migrant workers, they are not the champion countries. So analyzing all these things, the positive part from Nepal government is like they became the part of this intergovernmental mechanism and they're working a lot from their side. But the problem is I think we also need to analyze the class and the economic status of the countries. Like the Nepal, itself, and the countries, in the Middle East, like, is there the equal bargaining capacity between these countries? Because one country is sending migrant workers and it's struggling a lot, and it is also the champion country. But other countries, who are taking migrants, they are economically more independent. And then they are making a lot of, you know, profit and money from the cheap labour from the countries like ours. And again, Nepal government is working a lot in bilateral agreements. What is bilateral agreement? Is that really legally binded? Does our government has that capacity to bargain in a equal footing? I think these are some of the very much power relation that we need to analyze when we talk about migrants and returning migrant workers. Because when we talk about global to local, our national and local policies are highly influenced by the global policies, global market, and global economy. So, yes, of course, the government is working a lot. The Government of Nepal brought us reintegration guideline, I think three, four years back. But the guideline is very much gender neutral. it's not that is specific for the issues of women. And the local government are there to adapt the federal guideline, right? We are making a lot of policy dialogue saying that this guideline needs to be, changed because it doesn't say about women's specific issues. We know women are facing specific issues when they migrate, when they come back, everyone knows that. And I think the government actions, government plans, government policies are also depending upon the global market policy, which is very much interlinked to each other. I want to give you an example. When the national policies are more strong, are more migrant workers or returning migrant workers oriented, then I think our labour, our workers standard, uh, goes high, and it also affects the cheap labour, cheap market, which the profit making countries, they might not, you know, really want. So these are some of the context in Nepal, and there are a lot of policies, but sometimes we feel like it's more misogynistic policies which does not really talk about the specific issues. Even within the migrant woman, we see a lot of intersectional issues. The caste based discrimination is there, gender based violence is there. And, uh, you know, there are a lot of ethnic discrimination. So how all these dimensions and intersectionalities are responded by the policies that we have? And the policy is in one part. What about the implementation part? We see a lot of work needs to be done in this part.

marty: 26:24

I wanted to ask you also if there were, let's say, three things that you would like to see happen immediately perhaps policy changes, or agreements made, money allocated somewhere. What three immediate steps would you like to see happen to improve the chances that women returnee migrant workers could reintegrate more effectively and more successfully?

Sunita Mainali: 27:00

One thing I want very much immediate change and I think it's possible is to revise the current protectionist and restrictive laws that we have, which is forcing the migrant worker, woman worker, to use the irregular path, to travel. And this is making a lot of trouble. It's also a part of accountability of the recruitment agencies. So the most important part is the policy, the law. Women, they don't want any restrictive or any protectionist laws anymore, because they know it's the choice, migration is their choice. And it's their rights to migrate in a safe way. We talk about safe and orderly migration in one part, and in another part, we are doing a lot of ban. So this is so much, you know, paradox. And that is making the migrant workers more vulnerable. This is also linked with the reintegration because this comes within the circle, the cycle of migration. And another part is, we want the reintegration guideline to be amended because that doesn't work. That is very much gender neutral and, uh, the implementation is not that much effective and the guidelines should not be just for the sake of, you know, developing the guideline. There should be budget allocated for the implementation of the guideline. So, based on the guideline, the local government and the federal government they need to plan, and the plan is with the budget, which is very much important and it's about making community awareness and at the same time working on the economic empowerment of the returning migrant women. We also really want the Nepal government to ratify ILO 189 and 190. These will bind the government and the stakeholders to ensure the rights of migrant workers. And I shared you the data before: more than 80 percent of returning migrant women are unemployed, means now they are planning to send their daughters and sons for the foreign migration. They came back after five years, 10 years, now they don't have that economic opportunities here. Either they are planning to go back themselves or they are planning to send their sons and daughters. So, creating economic or job opportunities is also very, very much important. And if we go parallelly with all these things, maybe we can work on shifting narratives, we can work on the discriminative social norms, and at the same time we can work together with the government to make our policies more gender transformative. And at the same time, we can make sure that our migrant workers, returning migrant workers, they are, you know, choosing the safe, orderly paths for their work and ensuring the human rights.

marty: 30:02

I think there's little chance that the amount of migration is going to decrease. It's only increasing, and it's certainly going to be a huge part of Nepal's economy and society for many years to come. So are you optimistic that if some of these changes that you just called for, if they're put in place, do you think that migration for women overall can become a positive experience in the future?

Sunita Mainali: 30:31

I think yes, because now, though the situation is not that woman friendly, still they are choosing the path and the vulnerability is very much high, they are there to support the family and country, but when the mechanism or the support system is there through the policy, through the mindset and to the perception, definitely I think they can be more psychosocially free. if the situation of undocumented migration ends, then definitely it will help them for their, safety and security and the migration will increase more because it's a choice. It should be the choice of women. And at the same time, it should be safe and orderly and to ensure that, the policy is the most important part and perception is also the most important part. If we work in these two parts, I trust and I believe this will positively impact the life of migrant women, not only them, but their family and their society.

marty: 31:34

Okay, Sunita, that's great. Thank you very much. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today and explaining some of your work. It's a huge subject, and as you mentioned, you're working on all of these different aspects, but I think it gives people uh, a fairly good idea about some of the challenges facing women migrant workers, both when they return but throughout their journey So thank you again and best of luck in this work and maybe one day we can speak again.

Sunita Mainali: 32:06

Thank you so much, Marty, for this opportunity. My sharing is more based on the experiences of those returning migrant women whom I met, uh, whom we discussed all these issues. Thank you so much for your time and having me here.

marty: 32:22

Thanks again to Sunita Mainali for taking the time to talk about her work on migrant women's issues. I also want to thank all of you listening today, and those who followed the show in 2024. Focusing on only one issue migration was something new for Nepal Now, so I hope you enjoyed that approach. Whether you did or didn't, you can send a comment or an idea for a future episode by clicking on the link at the top of our show notes. You can also message Nepal Now on social we're(at)nepalnowpod on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook. Not on X. Or email me at nepalnowpod(at)gmail.com. I'll talk to you next time.